Douglas Rushkoff Interview

GB: You have worked extensively with Timothy Leary. What was he like as a person? Do you think that his teachings and theories are still relevant today?
Well, I think I played with him more than I worked with him. But maybe those are the same thing. It's hard to describe another person - particularly one as multi-faceted as Leary. He was fun-loving but impatient and somewhat intolerant. He didn't like to waste his time with people's neurosis; that's probably because he was a psychologist and saw it as a real pollutant. He was always challenging people's assumptions, forcing them to look at problems from new directions, and always in motion. This made him tough to be around, to some extent. It was like dropping acid or something. You knew you were in for a ride. But was always interesting to watch how his mind worked. And he was probably the most praising person I've ever met. He loved to praise people - cheerlead their efforts, and make them feel good about what they're doing.

GB: Cyberia was an early examination of virtual reality, the digital world and the various cyberpunk trends. Did you imagine at the time how these things would eventually become part of the mainstream?
Yes and no. I definitely saw that computers and networking and electronic music would become mainstream - a part of our culture. I didn't realize how far capitalism might twist all of them to its own purposes. I mean, the Internet has become a sales platform, networking is now just a form of marketing, and electronica is the background music for commercials. I had believed that these new phenomena were somehow resistant to the forces of capitalism. They may still prove to be so, but so far it doesn't look that way.

GB: It is my impression that, during the 90s, western counterculture was going through some sort of renaissance. There were a lot of interesting theories around (scientific or occult) and it seemed that we were about to undertake a major evolutionary step (eg., meme theory, temporary autonomous zone experiments like Burning Man, Grant Morrison’s Invisibles, Technorealism, the disinformation company, the list is endless). These ideas seemed to infiltrate the mainstream as well, resulting in stuff like The Matrix, the limitless potential of the internet and a rather relaxed attitude concerning sex and drugs. Suddenly though, there seems to be a cultural shift towards authoritarian conservatism, science seems to be conveniently ignored (in matters concerning global warming, evolution, etc.) and religious extremism is on the rise. Are you worried about the way things are going or are you optimistic that we will rise above these issues?
It's certainly a challenge. I fear that human beings may be too close to our own tribal roots to liberate ourselves, and that we've developed technology too rapidly compared with our ability to use it. Only 23% of Americans believe in evolution - making it even more difficult to evolve. Meanwhile, democracy appears to have been a failed experiment - overtaken by marketing and propaganda, to the point where people can't make any genuinely informed choices. Or at least where they no longer see the need. The shift isn't really so sudden. Radical conservatives, who teamed up with, orchestrated it quite consciously over the past 30 years Christian fundamentalists to get back into power. They were working with cultural viruses they didn't understand very well, however, and have now reduced the American populace to a mob. If they can control it, they may be okay for a little while longer. But when people are provoked on an emotional level for too long, they can become unpredictable.

GB: Leary, Terrence McKenna, Robert Anton Wilson and others have always insisted on the mind- expanding properties of psychedelic substances such as LSD, psylocybe mushrooms, DMT, etc. (and of course the idea has been around for ever). Unsurprisingly, most governments do not agree. Where do you stand on that?
I think everyone agrees on the mind-expanding properties. The only place people differ is on whether mind expansion is a good thing. Governments *love* mind expansion when they can use it in a controlled fashion. I think psychedelic substances can be great medicine for people who have forgotten about the plasticity of reality, and the extent to which we create our own perspectives. I think they can be an obstacle to one's intellectual and spiritual development, though, if they aren't used in a very conscious way. I don't think someone needs to have had a psychedelic experience, though, in order to get what's going on here.

GB: Testament presents a very interesting interpretation of Biblical events. What were the inspirations for it?
The Bible, itself, really. That's the easiest way to say it. Plus the way that the Bible has been so pathetically misinterpreted and sold. It's a powerful text, with some of the best mythological strains yet invented. So I was inspired to release some of its more potent ideas, again, back into the culture.

GB: There were some rumours of collaboration with Grant Morrison recently. Is that true?
Yeah - he and Genesis P-Orridge and I were going to meet up in this little country house I had and talk into a tape recorder for a few days. Turned out to be right around the time Grant's mom got sick with something, and then his father died. So it just didn't work out. And we all got onto other projects after that. Grant and I did a conference or two together, one for Disinfo and another out at the Aspen Institute. And he pretty much opened the door for me to the comic world. So we do some stuff together - just not so very explicitly.

GB: Are there any plans for the future for Psychic TV? What kind of music are you listening to these days?
Psychic TV was doing a lot of touring in Europe, which didn't really fit well with my new family life. You can't just go off around the world when you've got a little baby and a new mother at home. At least I couldn't. But I did play on a track for the new record - which should be out this year, I'd think. And I'll always be a friend of Gen's and the bands. It's definitely Gen's trip, though, and I have so much of my own work to do while I'm here that I'm probably better off not playing in a band. At least not one with as big a schedule and fan-base as PTV.
About what kind of music I'm listening to. Honestly, it's mostly ska and reggae. The baby likes that stuff, so I try to keep her happy. A little 70's rock, but mostly ska. And DanceHall reggae.

Interview by D.Kontogiannis for GB issue #07_2006